&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;UWC HEARING - DAY 2 - TUESDAY 6 AUGUST 1996





CASE NO:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;CT/00123

VICTIM:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;ABDURAHMAN ALLIE [brother]

NATURE OF VIOLENCE:&#9;&#9;SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE

TESTIMONIES FROM:&#9;&#9;ABDUL GANIE ALLIE [brother]

&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;HASSAN ALLIE [brother]



UNKNOWN: ... partially correctly or I think he also wants to say something if he will be allowed to do so.

COMMISSIONER: Okay that's fine.Then we - we need to ask you both to take the oath then, so I am going to ask you both to stand please.

ABDUL GANIE ALLIE&#9;&#9;&#9;Duly sworn states

ABDURAMAN ALLIE&#9;&#9;&#9;Duly sworn states

COMMISSIONER: Thank you, you may be seated.Commissioner Glenda Wilschut will facilitate your evidence and I hand over to her.

MS WILDSCUT: Thank you Denzil, I was about to say good morning, but I was just reminded that it is now afternoon.Mr Allie, Mr Abdul Allie because you are the person who has given us the statement, I would like you to speak to us first, after you have given us your statement, I will ask your brother Mr Hassan Allie, just to add very briefly to what you have told us.Would you please start off by telling us who you are, just a little bit about yourself and then you are free to proceed and tell us your story in your own words, thank you very much.

ABDUL GANIE ALLIE: Okay my name is Abdul Ganie Allie and normally I am know as Ganie, so I'd like the Commission as if they would call me Ganie please.

MS WILDSCHUT: Certainly we'll respect that. --- Where do I start, I am a qualified teacher as well as a counseling psychologist and I work at an institution where we rehabilitate juvenile offenders.I am married and I have three children and they all going to school, their ages range between 9 and 5 at the moment.My wife is at home, and I was suppose to be at work today but because of the happenings here, I had to come and testify.

&#9;You are the brother to Abdurahman Allie about whom you are going to tell us. --- Yes Abdurahman was our youngest brother who was killed in 1976.

&#9;Yes you may proceed with the story now. --- Okay the incident happened quite a while ago in fact twenty years this coming September.It was in the month of fasting that it occurred, I was at work on the day and at the moment I am living in Heathfield, but when this thing occurred it happened in Ravensmead where my parents were staying.On the 7th of September 1976 there was for lack of a better word, there was rioting taking place in Ravensmead or a up rise taking place in Ravensmead and I was at work the morning and heard about this.But because I didn't think it would affect us, I stayed until the end of the day and my brother Hassan next to me, collected me at work and we came home around about six o'clock the evening.At sunset we - we had our meal on the way home, when we turned into De la Ray Road off Modderdam Road, we were stopped by the police and said we couldn't enter the area.We said no but we live in the area and we are on our way home, they eventually allowed us to proceed and we had to drive through barricades etcetera and we got home a couple of minutes later.The area was in turmoil and there was tires and stuff burning.We went inside and we had our meals and it was - it was very risky being outside and we lived where my mother use to living at the moment for those who don't know the area, on the road leading to Tygerberg Hospital, now we were living on the border between let's put it this way, the so-called white area and we were living on the border there where - in the non-white area.So the people were - were assembling where we were staying and whatever was going on outside, we could be held accountable for that.On the other side you had the whites standing and on the border on this side, we had the so-called let's say non-whites accumulating there, throwing stones whatever.And we noticed what was happening, okay eventually to cut a long story short, it was peaceful and quite after that.At about ten o'clock that night, we were all in the house, we had a cup of tea and I distinctly remember the time because I use to listen to a radio serial at the time.And I went out the back door I use to do it, because I was studying and I thought I'll take a bit of fresh air, when from the back door to the front of our house, there were some white people about 200 meters away standing on the opposite and I was wondering why they were standing there, because there was nothing happening and why didn't they then go home, maybe to them it was - it was fun to stand outside and watch other people being assaulted or what or being shoot - shot at.A while later he came - Hassan came out and my later brother also joined me and were standing on our premises inside the yard and there was - and God is my witness, there was no-one apart from our opposite neighbour who was also standing and watching what was going on, because we live there, where else do we have to go and stand.Eventually after five minutes or so, I decided look there is nothing going on, I am going inside.He remained behind Hassan remained behind with Abdurahman, still on the premises and I went back into the house.And I was not - I was about to touch the handle - but bear in mind there was no-one in sight in front where we were staying.And as I touched the door handle, I just heard gunshots, I mean immediately I thought what's happening, who's shooting, why are they shooting? But before I could do anything, he came running down the driveway, ran into the garage I think and I called out to him or he called out to me where is Abdurahman so he says he was lying on the floor of the garage.So Abdurahman apparently manage to run down the lane, but what we didn't know was that more or less a position where - where the Commissioners are sitting now, more or less, maybe a meter or two further back, there is a wall at our place, exactly the same height.And our opposite neighbour who also gave a statement Ms Adams, apparently saw the police hiding behind that wall, while I was standing there, and they were actually as I went out, they jumped up and they just shot at us.Ms Adams before they fired -tried to phone us to say listen we didn't get the call, maybe because we were outside obviously we couldn't hear the phone ringing, but perhaps someone inside didn't think it was - I don't suppose there was enough time - was in a shock - but by the time I touched the handle and I came back, all of a sudden there was -there were policeman where they came from heaven knows.And they shot Abdurahman I mean four of them I would like to if I may I handed the names in to the Commission, I am going to mention their names, because I feel and maybe I am jumping the gun here because in the inquest that followed, it was found and I have it here, no blame on rioters death, where they said, nobody could be held accountable for his death, yet four people shot an unarmed young man, in front of us for no reason whatsoever, and I mean he died instantly and the people who shot him, had the audacity to make a case against us and two weeks later myself and my brother was locked up and we were charged with public violence.And they concocted evidence and they got people to testify against us that I was there the whole day for heaven's sake how can I be at two places at the same time when I was at work, I had to get the place where I was working somebody to testify in Court for us that I was not there the whole day.I mean I wasn't even there the whole day, I got there as six o'clock and we were made out to be liars.But okay we somehow managed to get the money together, we got donations from the World Council of Churches we had to raise funds by having film shows to defend us against the perpetrators whom I am going to mention now.And I am quoting from the newspaper of 1976, the riot policeman who were involved in the shooting was Lieutenant Hendrik Haarhof, Constable Johannes Botha, Jacques Gideon Tredoux, and Dewald van der Berg.And they alleged they were shooting at rioters.When if I may continue... [intervention]

&#9;Ja if I can just ask you if you would make the copy of that paper available to the Commission please. --- I have given - I have given copies of all this to the Commission.

&#9;Thank you very much. --- The next day okay when they shot Abdurahman, we carried him into the - into our kitchen, my parents were sleeping it was ten o'clock.These policeman came running down our driveway now as I said I was about to enter the house, before I could enter one of them hit me on the - on the side of the head, I mean I was standing in the back of our yard, I don't know why he hit me, they came running down, clubbed me with the butt of the gun, despite that I was kneeling down to pick my brother up, and they actually wanted to just drag him outside like a dog and I am sorry to use that term to refer to my brother.Okay we then told them but we live on this premises, we have to be here, where do you expect us to be, so we managed to convince them to allow us to take him inside our kitchen, he was lying there mortally wounded, we didn't realize it was like that.There was nobody outside, there was no so-called rioters -rioting outside.Immediately when we got in my mother got in, my father got there and I mean they were in tears what's happening now who shoot - who shot this young man.I went in to go and phone the ambulance because we had to get him to a hospital, as I phoned this - the ambulance or the doctor - this one policeman who shot our youngest - our brother said in Afrikaans what have we done, as if he regrets it, because they now realized but they shot someone wrongfully.Eventually the ambulance came, they put him on a stretcher we have some photo's here which I also handed in, and they took him to Tygerberg Hospital.I went with, they put a patch of plaster on my - on my - on the side of my head here and he was certified dead on arrival.We weren't allowed to take the body home because in terms of our faith we need to bury him the next day.No permission was granted by us to perform a post-mortem, they simply put him another ambulance and took him to the State Mortuary, we had no rights, we couldn't even take him home to give him a decent burial.The next day we had the funeral and the mourners who attended in fact they were so - so rude they even fired on the mourners who was standing there the next day at about twelve - one 'clock to attend the funeral.The funeral was held I - it was - it was a very tragic moment in our lives, I mean I could - it was the first time somebody had died in our family, and one can imagine the trauma that we had to go through - I personally had to go through because I still today feel that if I didn't go that night, maybe it would never have happened.I mean I didn't mean to go out to get him killed.But I didn't know there were people sitting there who was going to stand up, I have a picture here of my brother I just want to show it to - to the Commissioners to think that they would shoot someone - I'd like the photo back, it's the only one I have at the moment, to think they would shoot someone like that - who in fact never harmed anyone.The Commissioners came to our house to speak to my mother, I went to see her on Sunday and she is not in a state to testify in front of this Commission.I am a psychologist, but you give me the answers how you overcome this problem.Because nothing in the world can bring him back.In the meantime my late father passed away a couple of years later, I can imagine he died a very unhappy man.But that's not the end of it because a week or two later the police came and they surrounded our house many of them came.And they went through every single - they went into the roofs, they went through the entire house looking for bombs and what have you as if we - and I must be honest enough to say I am not a political - I wasn't a politically minded person at the time, I was studying and what have you, my father was in the business.And we were not politically minded people although we knew that - what was going on in the country obviously in most if you were one of the oppressed communities and even if you weren't one, you knew that apartheid was wrong, but I suppose we left it to those who were very actively involved.But all of a sudden we became I am sorry if I am deviating now, but we became the so-called enemy heaven knows why because the police use to come around to us and now all of a sudden when this happened we now became the enemy.They surrounded the place, they were looking for bombs and I don't know what else, they found absolutely nothing.So they left, the locked the entire place and they left, okay afterwards we opened.Two weeks later I was at work and a policeman rocks up there and said I am being charged now with public violence.They'd already been to him, I said look you can't take me in I am - I first want to get home, I drove with my car to my parent's place, I was still living with them at the time, and I said look they say we are now under arrest and we must go with themto the police station.We said okay we'll go with you, we didn't know what we were letting ourselves in for, when we got to the police station, they said now we must take your fingerprints, they took our fingerprints, bear in mind this is the month of fasting hey.And then all of a sudden they said well you must go in, they going to lock us up now.We being charged formally with public violence, this is two weeks after the incident.We had to spent the whole night in jail, no food no nothing, my parents were upset I mean you can imagine what was happening.They tried to sent us food, instead they - they only allowed us to get coats, warm coats to keep us warm.The next morning my - my late dad had to get legal advice in order to get us out on bail.Fortunately family members came with and they gave moral support and we were then formally charged in Court in Parow, the case was then transferred to Bellville - we were out on bail of R400-00 each, both of us, and it became a formal hearing.And for that I don't know how many months the case dragged on, we were going through that trauma of being charged with public violence, we had to appear every time there was a Court hearing we had to appear, we had to get an attorney, the attorney advised us to get an advocate, and we had to get a junior advocate, the system apparently works like that, which all cost money and we didn't have all that kind of money, yet we had to defend ourselves.The State at the time, this was in the prime years of apartheid could go indefinitely, I was forced to - I was ten - I was teaching at the school and fortunately I could - we could raise funds try to get some funds to pay the legal fees.We wrote to the World Council of Churces they donated some I think in the region of R2,000-00 plus to us, which we really appreciated at the time.I can't remember the person in charge name, but any case, but anyway, to cut a long story short, in the end they found us - they acquitted us for lack of evidence.

&#9;It's okay Mr Hassan Allie, we'll give you an opportunity to speak after your brother has addressed the Commission.--- We were then acquitted, now subsequent to that they had - we again had to raise money to have the inquest, so we had to get another advocate to attend to the inquest.And to summarize the inquest found that nobody was responsible for his death, nobody - somebody shot him, four people shot at him at one person and they - we have photo's here of how he was - his body was mutilated at a distance of about five - six metres if he was doing something wrong, which I still maintain to this day then surely they should of arrested him and the three of us then and put us in jail.I would of accepted that if we were doing something wrong, normally they would - they would have to but obviously they were out - the intention was to kill someone.But to have taken it out on our young brother, I still don't understand.We left it like that because when we were acquitted it was like an anti climax now why did you let us go through all this trauma, why did you charge us, if we are innocent.After the inquest again nobody was held responsible and we had to console ourselves, we had to pacify ourselves and my parents had to live with the loss of a young son who was I mean he had the technical ability to have been I don't know, God determines how long we going to live on this world, it's not in our hands, but for someone to suddenly come and terminate your life just like that for no reason whatsoever, that to me is totally unacceptable and there was no apology from the State from nobody not from one of these policeman came to our place to apologize and up until this moment I - I don't wish to raise the issue with my mother even when I decided to follow this - we decided to come to the Commission, I didn't have the guts to go to my mother even when I saw on Sunday to tell her I just told her I am going to the Commission, that's all.

&#9;Can you tell us how old your brother was at the time you referred to him as a young man, how old was he at the time? --- He was - he was 21 years old.

&#9;21. --- 21 yes.

&#9;Apart from yourselves asbrothers and your parents did he have any other family? --- No he wasn't married at the time, he was assisting my parents at home and he had his own business in electronics, radio fixing etcetera and I suppose had he been alive today he would have been doing the kind of work that the gentleman over there is probably doing or something like that, but I can't ... [intervention]

&#9;You referring to the technician when you pointing. --- Ja he was - he was very electronically minded at one stage he had his own, I would call it a disco band or whatever but something in sound system what have you.But he was - he was quite talented from a technical point of view.

&#9;Maybe we can ask your brother Mr Hassan Allie now to address us, he - I am sure Mr Allie would like to add to your statement.We are aware that we do not have a statement, a written statement before us, so we would ask if he would talk to us adding what you have said, and just perhaps to address us quite briefly. --- Sure I just want the ask the Commission if I could say something after that as well if I may be allowed to.

&#9;Certainly - certainly we still need to ask a few questions for clarity and so we'll certainly give you an opportunity to make a further statement.

HASSAN ALLIE: --- Good afternoon ladies and gentleman my name is Hasson Allie I am the eldest brother of the late Abdurahman Allie.The place where we use to work in - during the incident of 1976, the 7th of September my brother Ganie was working at Standard Bank and I was working as Spes Bona Bank before they became First National or Barclays.We are business people, we were reared behind the counter, there was no such a thing as political inclement, although we always supported the underprivileged.I am sitting in front of here because I did speak to Dr Wendy Orr and Ms Mary Burton up till today I can't see myself looking at my brother's photo and say there's nothing I could you for you my friend.He turned 21 at the age, a prime age, he became a sponsor for Caltex Electronics which could have been a viable proposition for him to the future if he had lived.But as my brother said we don't know how long we will live.As Ganie had confirmed that there was no riots at the time between eight and ten when we usually close the shop.Also our neighbour Ms Adams confirmed that with your investigation, and it was during the time of Ramadaan.Losing a brother is a big thing, it is something which you cannot imagine yourself unless you have the family with you, nobody else can feel it for you.To be locked up during Ramadaan, without food because we normally fast from the morning till sunset, and we were picked up at three o'clock the afternoon and to go without food until the next day is 48 hours.And yet when a policeman came to the cell, when I held him because he was of - he couldn't think why we were locked up, we were asked why are you in jail, what have you stolen, you pigs, have you stolen pigs?What can you do, you sit and look at the policeman your brother had just died, your mother - father had a heart attack after that, you sit and think what must you do, must you go out and revenge him, is that the thing God has given us to revenge each other.Yet at the inquest when our advocate Mr Blignault asked the constable how did you feel why did you shoot, I mean how long were you on duty, he just said I've - I intend to kill and as he said in the inquest, after being found not guilty by Judge Symington, we asked the Magistrate but why, I mean we were acquitted why aren't they charged for murder.We were just told you can - you'll be held in contempt by asking a question to the Magistrate why is no-one to blame.What do you do in that instance, you go and report an incident at the police station, you get held up in a cell for the same day on the funeral, and told look if you don't sign a statement, we will do what we did to your brother.The name of the Captain was Captain Potgieter, the other day whilst I - I went to Ms Burton and Dr Wendy Orr I said to them I went to get a sworn affidavit because I do - I am in real estate I have to get certain documents signed by Commissioners on the sworn affidavits, I met this Constable in the Court, I looked at him, I said to myself how can I forgive him, burly, brave he walks down the Courts of today's law.Where is justice, do we have to do what happened on Sunday night, take the guns and go and shoot them is that the kind of a justice system which I am now forced to say I'd like to do it but I can't because I am a God fearing person.Please look at the evidence, look at the statements which has been delivered and the Court results and the inquest, see what you can do for me, not to satisfy me, but to satisfy the justice and the legal system of today.Thank youYour Honour.

&#9;Thank you Mr Allie, your brother was wanting to make a further statement before we ask questions for clarification.

ABDUL GANIE ALLIE: Thank you Commissioner Wildschut, I don't know whether you want to have the order the other way around, you first want to ask questions and then I can.

&#9;I just have one or two questions, it seems as though your -as you tell your testimony that the family has gone through repeated harassment since that incident and your family has gone through a tremendous amount of trauma.And I am very aware that - that there are many questions unanswered in this whole incident.Could you give us an idea of how the family as a unit - did the family have coped with these tragic events, how have -how has the family death with this event? --- Thank you Ms Wildschut I just want to say since the incident the family hasn't coped in fact the family has - have split up.Because Abdurahman was - he was the one unifying factor in our family.I think he was the one was - who could have carried on but sadly he was taken out of circulation.And I suppose we all have our own lives to lead, and I - I got married, I have my own family to look after not that I don't care about the rest of the family.But with - with Abdurahman if he had remained behind he could of - I think he would of carried on, but as it is now, nobody has carried on and I think we all got stuck in 1976 because of the severe blow to the family.My mother I don't think she's come over this - this hurdle.

&#9;Has - I know you're a mental health practitioner yourself, has the family had an opportunity to have any supportive counseling perhaps not in the - perhaps in the traditional sense of counseling but in which ever way the family feels is necessary, has there been any external support for the family/Not on a formal basis but on a - let's say friends/family basis, we've had the prayer evenings, the 40-days - 100-days annually we've had it for initially we've had it every year etcetera prayer evenings and that is one way to console the family.We have accepted the loss, we have accepted the fact that he has departed from this world.I think it's the manner in which he departed from this world that is so unacceptable to us that there is never been any attempt from those who - who took him away, who came to us and who apologized - had they apologized or even in any way, approached my late father or us in fact and my mother, to say look we acted on - purely on instinct or whatever, I know it was a difficult situation at the time, but it does - it didn't warrant that kind of action from anyone, lest alone - least of all against the person like - like my brother.And I am not trying to paint a picture here of an angel, he was a young man, he was liked by everyone.He hardly had time to get his life going, yet he was shot down in the prime of his life, we have photo's here as to how they shot him front and back, he body was mutilated to the extend that it was - it was horrible to look at him.I couldn't bear to look at him the day of the funeral, but there was no counseling to answer your question except the fact that we - we had to console ourselves.

&#9;Ja, through the hearings that we have been going through the past few months, and also this week, the notion has come up that we need many more centres and places where people who have been traumatized by events like the one you described can be taken through counseling, can be supported and help to deal with the past, so that we can move into the future.Would you support such a notion? --- Are you referring to my family as well?

&#9;Yes I am. --- I think I am in favour of that yes, I would support that, thank you.

&#9;Thank you very much, I do not have any more questions to ask you except to hand over to the chair and perhaps if any of my colleagues would like to ask some questions. --- Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, any further questions, Mary Burton.

MS BURTON: Thank you, thank you Chairperson, it's perhaps not exactly a question, I would just like to say that, that Wendy and I remember very vividly the discussions that we had with Mr Hassan Allie and the - the picture is certainly one of frustration and rage at a quest for justice which met closed doors everywhere and we really understand that sense of wanting to find answers, wanting to find explanations.And we hope that through this process, you will at least make one step further forward in that guest.And also just to remind the audience and all of us that, that period of the - that week in September was a time of great turbulence in Cape Town.There was - there had been - the schools had been closed and there were various incidents of rioting and unrest which was very strongly repressed.And in fact between the 7th and the 11th of September the official death toll was 33 persons, it's just to get a sense for ourselves of what that period was like.And you as a family experienced it very tragically indeed.And so I think we particularly like to thank you for putting yourselves through the pain of telling the story which is one way of making sure that the record is complete.Thank you very much. --- Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I - I want to say thank you to both of you, what has often happened is that we tend to turn and maybe this is how we cope when you - when you deal with tragic events, you turn the person's into statistics, you see I mean 33 people - 33 people were killed whatever and for most of us those are syfers I mean it is figures and maybe that is the way you can cope because if you turn those figures into persons of flesh and blood, that it was a brother of two people, it was the son of and that, that death was one that triggered heart attacks for parents.There is a level at which I think we might not always be able to cope, and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in part is saying to our nation these were not just statistics, these were people.People who are remembered with deep fondness and there is still a void in the family - in the hearts of many that we looking at all of this I mean you know you look at forced removed and we are told 3 million people, 3 million people were removed.I think you are able to cope because it's numbers, it's' when you then meet somebody from District Six who tells you that, that is where I come from, or you are like the old man who having been moved from District Six packed up all of this stuff in cartons, and twenty years later when we visited him, his stuff was still in cartons because he could not bear to unpack.And we hope I mean that as we listen to these and other stories, that we enflesh the figures and make us aware that we are talking about human beings.And that maybe - we ought to learn as a nation to weep, and say this has happened in our land, and then give thanks to God that people go around saying yes I remember you, you shot my brother and I am going to fix you up.Because that is the - that is the wonder of this land.It is part of the miracle of it and we want to thank you as we thank the many who have survived these atrocities.And who have helped or helping to transform, to change - to change what should be hate into love and to change what ought to be turmoil and unrest into - into peace.And we are seeing it happening in this land and you have made a contribution to we - what we have.And yes I mean you - it's tough but when you - when you say I mean we've got a freedom.You should know that your brother contributed to it, and maybe that is one way that you can come to terms with it, that it is - it is part of the price of us now being a democracy, that your brother died yes, and died an awful death but it was not ultimatly in vain, those who killed him at the time thought that they would get rid of this longing for freedom, and they thought but in killing him they would snuff him out like you snuff out a candle.But you see in your heart and in the hearts of those who knew your brother he lives, and he lives in the freedom of this land, that - that blood as we have sometimes said in the rallies, in the funerals, that's the blood that has watered the tree of freedom.And in the Christian calendar today it is the feast of the transfiguration - a feast who speaks about how God turns evil into God.Your brother's death was an evil as it happened, but in a wonderful way that we cannot explain God has used it for the sake of this land.Which does not mean that we as a Commission must not try to find out because you want to know the truth, I mean why it is happened.And is it possible that those who perpetrated for whatever reason, might find it in themselves to be able to say sorry.Thank you. --- Thank you Chairperson.Could I address the Commission again.

&#9;Ja. --- I wish to thank Archbishop Desmond Tutu for those kind words, I said I just want - I just wish to thank Archbishop Tutu for those kind words, thank you very much, that's most heartening to hear those kind words coming from you.Thank you once again.As I said earlier on I just wanted to say a few things if I may, I wrote something down last night which I felt I would like to - to say to the Commission and I hope I am not going to offend the Commission or anyone present here.Today, this next September it's going to be 20 years since the death of my brother and we are still mourning the loss.We still wonder why they killed him, and why they charged us two weeks after his death and we were left defenseless at the height of the apartheid era.We were helpless while the trumped up every false evidence against us, producing incriminating so-called evidence that wasn't remotely near the truth.And humiliating us prior to the trial and even during it.I also wish to quote from the Sunday Times of 9/6/96 with reference to a previous person who was killed, true or not the image of my brother - brother's untimely death has plagued our family especially my mother and my late father who subsequently died for the past twenty years.Like so many others, she - this is my mother is looking not for revenge so much as understanding, but for something or someone to forgive. What happened to her son, and why did it happen.And I am quoting this and forgive me if I am saying this, there is little real prospect that justice will be done via the Truth Commission, and I say this with the greatest of respect for the Commission.I am quoting this, that justice will be done via the Truth Commission and even less one might venture via the Courts.All we ask is our brother's - we want our brother's name to be cleared whilst our mother is at least still with us.And to those who unceremoniously and cold bloodaly shot and killed him, may they find peace in their hearts.We trust that the TRC, the Commission will fulfill it's terms of reference and I would like to make a personal appeal to the TRC to refer this matter to the reparations sub-committee for further attention, I thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. --- Thank you.





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